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Joined on 28 sty 2003
Total posts: 7
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Couple ranking system
26 grudnia 2003 18:14
Original Topic:
Info regarding judge panel for each event.
This site is definitely becoming one of the most popular sites for results of dance championships. It may be too much to ask at the moment that the site offers marks/scores from each comp, it would be interesting to know who is on the judge panel for each event.
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Joined on 12 lis 2003
Total posts: 41
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Couple ranking system
12 stycznia 2004 15:42
It's probably a little ambitious, but as a competitor who is not yet sufficiently advanced to enter EADA events I would love to see more results featured from "lesser" ranked events, such as pre-champ, intermediate, etc. Those events are just as important to those of us who enter them as the chart-rated events are to the competitors who enter those. It would mean a lot more work to gather all those results though, so I can see why it doesn't happen often.
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Joined on 12 sie 2003
Total posts: 84
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Couple ranking system
26 lutego 2004 19:14
I agree completely, Janine.
Further, I think it would be good if there was a ranking system that would be applicable to intermediates and pre-champ couples (or ideally a unified ranking system for all). Surely in this day and age of computers it would be quite simple for every comp organiser to put the results in some central database and have some formula for producing a ranking?
In all team sports there are leagues down to the lowest level so competitors have a way of knowing where there stand. In dancing there is a chart that really only applies to the top 10 or so.
Robin
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Joined on 14 lut 2001
Total posts: 1 991
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Couple ranking system
29 lutego 2004 23:38
Sorry for late answer :)
First of all - regarding results. we spend several hours daily! entering results. We would love to enter results from lower classes (and we are trying to do so), but a/ they are much more difficult to find b/ they are sometime waiting in a queue
As for ranking - we know it's a computer age :) If you have an idea how to define ranking which would work accross different classes (even unformal) we'd love to implement it. For the last year we are trying to find such system. All existing ranking systems work only for specified group of competitions (for example EADA ranking events or IDSF). To create ranking for couples one has to define ranking for competition first. How can you compare 1st place in Blackpool with a 1st place on Sunday competition!
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Joined on 12 lis 2003
Total posts: 41
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Couple ranking system
1 marca 2004 07:45
In reply to Robin's and Admin's posts, it's a relief to know I'm not the only person thinking this way! I can see how such a ranking system would be fraught with difficulty and I think it would need to be confined to Sunday comps. Possibly there could be "premium" points for results in events such as Champions of Tomorrow and Stars of the Future, but really there seems to be little else out there other than those two events for pre-champ and below and I don't think you could build a ranking system around that type of event. Is there somebody out there with experience of league tables in some other sport who could suggest a simple way of dealing with the results of Sunday comps? It's surely in everybody's interest to have such a league table because if people are keen to accumulate points they will be more enthusiastic about supporting the Sunday circuit. At the moment people may feel they can just come along when they feel like it because it makes no difference to their standing, but this could inspire more commitment and increase the numbers at comps. Wouldn't it be great to get something going?
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Joined on 12 sie 2003
Total posts: 84
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Couple ranking system
1 marca 2004 10:10
Hi Zbyszek , Elaine
You can always ask the competition organisers to fill in a web-form so you don't have to type in results. They'll do so if it means that their comps will be listed as a ranking event ;).
I think there are a couple of possible kinds of system:
1) IDSF-like, have different level comps which are worth different amounts of points (e.g. EADA ranking can earn 120 points, normal am can earn 60, p/c 30 and intermediate 15, novice 5). Similar to the EADA ranking, only the best 5 results/year count...
2) ELO-system (or Glicko or a number of others) which computes scores dependent on who you compete against (so if you win a comp with entries from highly ranked people you get more points than a comp with less good competitors). Chess use the ELO system (mathematical explanation at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELO_rating_system), a newer alternative is Glicko (http://www.glicko.com/glicko.doc/glicko.html). Both of them have the slight problem that they are based on 1:1 competitions, but they could easily be adopted...
Basically, if you beat people ranked higher than you, you gain points, if you lose to people ranked lower than you, you lose points, so the ranking changes until you have the correct number of points to accurately reflect your strength.
3) a combination of the above. E.g you make a formula for how many points a comp is worth based on number of entries and average point score.
Any thoughts?
Robin
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Joined on 28 kwi 2005
Total posts: 2
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Couple ranking system
4 marca 2004 17:57
I agree the scoring systems he mentions would be too complicated to apply in anything other than 1:1 competitions.
If you look at other events where multiple players compete simultaneously, such as F1 or golf, the scoring systems are related to the EADA arrangement. For F1 there are set points at each (equally weighted) event for a given place. In golfing they use the money won, rather than points, as an indicator of ranking. The difference is that that golf events have a, variable, greater or lesser kudos/attraction depending on the priz money they can afford to put up.
If we wanted to build this idea into the scoring system for dance competitions we could weight the competions with a calculation depending on the rating of those who attend the event.
A basic possibility is the competitors get a set "positional score" (F1 style) multiplied by the event "weighting factor" (the ISDF score maybe to keep it simple). Again, regarding the weighting factor, it would be useful to have this arranged as a more variable factor so that it would help "incentivise" competition organisers to stage attractive events and check the validity of scores posted.
On the subject of the onerous nature of having to update all this information, we could take another leaf out of the golfing fraternity's book. Namely, competitors could submit their own scores. For these to be registered, they would need to have them ratified by another couple that competed at the same level in the same event. People could be kept honest by event scrutineers just auditing the marks entered (i.e. just checking a limited, random, sample of marks entered for the competitions they were scrutineering at).
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Joined on 14 lut 2001
Total posts: 1 991
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Couple ranking system
4 marca 2004 18:12
The real problem starts when we are dealing with international competitions. What is worth more for (for example) Russian couple - being 7th on Closed Russian championship or being 7th on Open Ballroom/Latin IDSF event.
Giving score points based on who are you competing against is a very good idea, but ... does not solve the problem. We could not find a formula which would work. It seems that every comp should carry a weight assigned to it, but as we (on average) enter 5-6 events per day! - who is going to assign these weights. We would appreciate help from others, but ... we do not get a lot of it.
We were thinking about assigning weights to comp based on ranks of people competing, but we still have to come up with a good mathematical formula for it.
There are many small technical problems - for example:
- total of points won is not a good measure, for example Paul Kilick had more points than Brian Watson, but Brian was always winning with Paul
- best top 5 (or 10, or 15) as in EADA - does not work for lower rank of international couples who often do not compete against each other. Who is better John Doe from England who is on n-th place in England or Ivan Kakoyto, who is on n-th place in Russia?
Anyway - if we/you/somebody finds good way - I can promise that we will implement it!
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Joined on 12 lis 2003
Total posts: 41
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Couple ranking system
4 marca 2004 20:11
I completely see your point when you take this idea in the context of ALL results EVERYWHERE. I have to admit that in my simplistic way I was really thinking of a UK dance league as that is the one in which I would compete! Surely it would not be viable to compare results from different countries? I cannot see how it would be possible to use such a system on international results, but why not a national league?
Your example of Paul Killick versus Bryan Watson would be relevant, but if we were talking about results from the UK Sunday circuit (mainly), why shouldn't a couple who attend say eight out of ten comps amass more points than a couple who only attend five out of ten? Wouldn't that be an incentive for couples to support the Sunday circuit more? It would also be an incentive for promoters to report results. Competitions might be better supported by competitors who would be motivated by the desire to earn points and promoters would be happy!
Obviously I am only speaking from the point of view of a competitor on the UK Sunday circuit!
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Joined on 12 sie 2003
Total posts: 84
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Couple ranking system
5 marca 2004 12:49
I don't think an ELO style system would be "too complicated" to implement, but it might not be very transparent. The way it would (could) work is essentially such that your score would improve whenever you beat someone who was ranked above you and it would decrease if you lose to someone ranked below you. This would stop Paul from outranking Brian without ever beating him.
But i quite like the idea of our nameless contributor "n/a" to simply allocate points to events based on the ranking of the entrants. The simplest system would be to have 4 or 5 classes of events, each with a points schedule. E.g.
class 1: "total points entered >1000"
1st place 120
2nd place 110
3rd place 100
4th place 90
5th place 80
6th place 70
SF: 50
QF: 25
2nd rnd: 10
class 2: "total points enetered <1000 and > 500"
1st place 70
2nd place 65
3rd place 60.
etc. etc.
or something of that sort... your total score would still be the best 5 results of the last 12 months (or best 7 or best 10 or whatever).
Of course a competition could be "class 1" either by having 20 top people in it or by having 100 average people, but in some ways winning either of those is quite an achievement.
Further there could always be a "championship class" with double the points that is reserved for select really big events.
Anyway, i think there are 1000s of possible systems, but basing the number of points available on the couples that enter and their current rankings seems a very sensible idea as well as eliminating the need fro human intervention. It would also mean that highly ranked couples would like to see more entries at the lower end as it would increase their points, rather than just making it a longer day for them...
Robin
PS the problem with people entering their own results is that you need everyone to do that or you won't know what the event was like. I think even organisers will be convinced to do it themselves, so long as they see their inclusion as a ranking comp as an advantage!
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