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Practical Suggestions

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tango
Joined on 29 paź 2006
Total posts: 192

Re: Practical Suggestions

19 grudnia 2007 19:49

Please do not apologise for the length of your explanation. Indeed I would like to thank you for taking the time to do this .

It is very evident to see that you are very passionate about the future of British dancing ! I have never seen the British Professionals in the light that you show them  . The coaches that I have been involved with are caring and sincere people. However I am approaching this subject  with an open mind , and can fully accept that you (being a professional )  are in a position to see, hear ,and know of situations and circumstances that I have not encountered.

You state that "The BDC is in reality a body that represents professionals". If I am understanding you correctly,  it would seem that you beleive that the Amateurs are not on the same playing field as the Professionals with the BDC . If this is the case , why do you believe that ? And which association(if any) do you beleive best represents the needs of the Amateur dancers?

It is now my turn to apologise, my apology is for asking so many questions :)

 

 

 

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keggs
Joined on 24 gru 2005
Total posts: 208

Re: Practical Suggestions

19 grudnia 2007 21:13

Hi Tango

Thanks once again.

Yes, you are right i thinking amateurs are not on the same level playing field. The British Dance Council started life as the Official Board of Ballroom Dancing in the 1930s I think. At that time there were a huge number of teaching societies (no idea how many) many like my own being local. Over the years many disappeared, combined or were absorbed into other societies resulting in 9 which remain today. Each society basically offers its members the same sort of things and are open to both ballroom dancers and stage dancers.

The OBBD was set up by ballroom teachers to try and standardise the technique and teaching of ballroom dancing. Over the years with the increasing popularity of competition dancing (in those days dancing wasn't considered a sport; some still won't accept it even now), the OBBD decided they should control this aspect of dancing. I don't suppose it occured to amateurs dancers that they should have a say. Consequently, the OBBD took on the role of a governing body. As such, other organisations such as Butlins, and the Blackpool Tower company took seats on the board. By the time I started dancing in the 1970s, the Official Borad was in complete control of all facets relating to competition dancing. They also set up various committees such as amateur affairs committee, the teachers committee etc. Everything was going swimmingly except there was growing unrest amongst amateurs. It has to remembered here that dancing was strong in Britain but was poorly represented elsewhere in the world. That was to change as we all know.

The amateurs (many of whom are now professional) wanted a seat on the board. If the OBBD was discussing amateur matters, then amateurs should have a say as well. The OB flatly refused. Eventually, Eris Morley (of Miss World fame) suggested the creation of a British Amateur Dancers Association. Eric had a seat on the board as a representative of Mecca the owner of the many ballrooms around the country. {I see a parallell with the amateur league here}. So, BADA was created - an Official Board creation, not an amateur creation. The only amateur creations at that time were clubs and groupings such as Norwest Amateur Dancers (of which I was a member). Who represented amateurs on the borad via BADA I have no idea but it's likely they are among the top pros coaches of today. But that's just an educated guess.

BADA was later split into the 4 regional amateur bodies we have now. Whose decision this was I have no idea. What the reason was I have no idea. It did increase the amateur participation on the board but not enough to be equal to the professionals.

Over the years the OBBD changed its name twice, settling on British Dance Council Ltd. Today it is comprised of corporate member bodies (not affiliated bodies) - the 9 teaching societies, other professional bodies such as the BDF, Association of Professional Disco Teachers (can't remember proper title) and Dance Promoters Association plus businesses such as First Leisure (or whatever the name is who own the Winter Gardens and Tower) and finally the 4 rehional amateur bodies. There are a couple of affiliate bodies (eg Western LIne Dance Association). I have no idea how they fit into the BDC.

As you can see from this that all the amateur bodies such as EADA are outnumbered.

As Elaine intimated, EADA accepts the BDC as the ultimate authority or governing body so whatever they decide as a group will not affect anything that goes on unless the rest of them on the board (in particular the professional groupings) agree.

This to me is a dictatorship by one group. EADA etc may have a vote but how wortwhile a vote is it when it can be so easily blocked.

I am nort the only professional who is frustrated with this business. I'm a nobody in it but Reg Chaliinor ( I don't think he'll mind me mentioning his name) has also found that whatever he suggests is blocked by the very professional groups he is involved with - BDF, Teaching societies. It is not in their interests to change anything. Although the reality is very much the opposite. If they could just take off the blinkers and see that people like me and Reg are trying to improve their own lives as well as every other dancer including dare I say it you own son or daughter Tango.

It is so sad that these people are so set in the ways of the past. It's as if they want to see the demise of dancing (competitive dancing at least) in Britain. I really don't understand it.

There are some pros who are trying to do something in other areas. How much success they are having I have no idea.

There are no plans. No targets to aim for.  As for vision of where we want to be in the next 5, 10 20 years. Forget it.

I am passionate but not just for me but for my youngest son. He's 9 now and I hope one day he'll take over from me. But what kind of dancing world will he have when he does take over. Probably much the same as it is now unless we all do something to help change it for the better.

You asked which body best represents the amateurs. Currently the 4 amateur organisations eg EADA. But they are hamstrung. They also lack money which I'm sorry to say is now vital.

As a teacher I shudder to think how much of my hard earned money has been paid to the shambles called the British Dance Council. I've had nothing back from them - ever. If I dare braoch it with my teaching society no doubt I'll get short shrift. When the going gets tough professional ranks close.

I sound bitter. I'm not. I've no reason to be. I make a living from it. It's been my life for nearly 40 years. Instead I'm angry at a business that doesn't seem to know what it wants, where it want to go never mind how to get there.

Best wishes
Steve
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keggs
Joined on 24 gru 2005
Total posts: 208

Re: Practical Suggestions

19 grudnia 2007 21:22

Come on folks. I've counted 628 views. I don't believe it's one person viewing 600 odd times. Surely you have suggestions to make on how British dancing can be improved. You don't have to give your names. Take a shot at it. You might just have the one idea eluding the rest of us.

Best wishes
Steve


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tango
Joined on 29 paź 2006
Total posts: 192

Re: Practical Suggestions

19 grudnia 2007 22:33

Im assuming that you have brought up your thoughts and suggestions for change at places such as Annual General meetings with some of the Governing bodies. If this is the cases what reactions were you met with ?

 You say that there are other Pros in the Country attempting to implement the changes , is it possible to get together? Discussing any progress (or brick walls) you all  may have met along the way could be very productive.

 Are there any ways in which non dancers such as myself can put my views forward , and if so to whom ? Could a meeting be called in which dancers (whether Pro or Amateur) could discuss issues that need addressing ? If such a meeting did go ahead would there be reprocussions ? To avoid this happening could representatives from the Governing bodies be invited to the meeting ?

I realise that my suggestions are probably far to simplified , and may already have been tried.

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keggs
Joined on 24 gru 2005
Total posts: 208

Re: Practical Suggestions

20 grudnia 2007 09:47

Hi Tango

When I started to try and change things (naiively believeing that I might get support), I originally wrote a letter to Dance News. I did get a couple of positive responses most notably from Bryan Allen.

I then contacted as any local professionals as possible to invite them to a meeting at a colleagues school. Most didn't bother to reply. Of those that did only a handful agreed to meet.

The meeting itself was a non starter. A local teacher simply attacked me for daring to make any suggestion that we need to change anything. He then added that why should we just focus on our form of dancing. What about Ballet etc. Weren't they just as important. He was effectively spouting the teaching society mantra that everything is OK and nothing needs to change. I realised that as a prominent member of the IDTA he (direct or indirect) was sanctioned to deliberately scupper any ideas other than those of the establishment.

Reg Challinor has had similar experiences. Apparently, he went to a meeting of the BDF I think. He put a proposal forward. I can't remember what it was but I dn't think it was a major idea but could have helped EADA members. The respose he got was "Does it undermine or affect the BDCs authority." The establishment in my view and I think of others such as Reg Challinor are trying as hard as they can to maintains its position. Any deviation from this is amount to treachery.

A couple of years ago, I decided to change tack. Unfortunately (and again probably naiively), I had thought members of EADA (they are the largest amateur body I think), would want change. They do. What's stopping them? Fear. Fear of the establishment. Fear of their careers being affected if they dare to step out of line. People on another thread accuse the IDSF of heavy handedness. At least this is open. With the professional establishment in Britain, this is covert and subtle.

It's OK for me to say these things. There's nothing that can be doe to me. I have a qualification to teach. They could expel me from my teaching society but would they do that. They need all the members (not to saty money) they can get.

The question is what to do next. Incidentally, in what I was (and perhaps still am) proposing was what I called a County Dance Sport Association, the main of which was to bring all local professional and amateurs together to work towards a common aim - Promotion and development of Dance Sport. I use that phrase not just to talk about competitive dancing but also social or leisure dancing. That's all it was. I had hoped that if this took off locally and worked, then others would spring up. It might in turn help to create a better, fairer and more equal partnership between professionals and amateurs. At this time I did not think it was necessary to remove the pro / am barrier. However, my experience in all this has led me to the need to remove it. Only then when everyone is on a level playing field would anything really change.

Now that you can  see where I'm coming from I hope you can understand the difficulties any of us have in getting anyone to see the benefits of change. Hence, this thread. My idea of linking a local school such as mine with say EADA I still think is viable but I feel we need to try to get as much support as possible. What could the BDC do. I don't believe they could do anything about it. What matters is EADA liking the idea and schools like mine actually doing it.

At least there are a couple of people here who are interested enough to discuss these things. Let's hope others will do the same.

Best wishes
Steve
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polkadancer
Joined on 20 paź 2006
Total posts: 1 137

Re: Practical Suggestions

20 grudnia 2007 20:54

Dear Elaine

It is hard to imagine a more confused thread where people simply do not know what is going on-

Sadest of all is the big "love in" and neither understands.......................................

¨We have a Professional who wants to be an Amateur (IDSF) and forget the Professionals IPDSC- but actually they want to be a nothing-

Then we have someone who knows nothing about anything but happy to attack and criticise others and swallow whatever they are told.

One moment "well done Neil Jones and Fred" and the next bring on the restrictions and away with "freedom".

Allow Amateurs to carry out Professional activities but call themselves "Amateur"Smile

 

No wonder Sport England are turning away-

 

Have you ever considered......................................

Sports England may have correctly concluded dance is NOT a sport.

The problem is not the BDC

BUT  the IDSF.

One moment they are Amateur the next they do not recognise the difference -and Amateurs is like riding a donkey and a few months later they are setting up a Professional Division -BUT you must understand this is entirely diffent to the Amateur IDSF.SmileBig Smile

They are clueless what they are:!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It would be laughable were it not sad and bringing our dance world into disrepute.

 

I strongly believe the time has come when the BDC decide that dancers can join either EADA or the WDC Amateur League.

EADA can of course leave BDC and join IDSF

Then we know the conditions for being part of the EADA heirachy are rigged for some  and you know there is no decent and above board standard. 

 Of course competition organisers can pay a huge fee to IDSF and at greater expense employ only only IDSF Adjudicators and use only IDSF scrutineer systens BUT will they?.  There is no need. 

Somehow I think almost unanimoulsly English entrepeneurs, competition organisers and adjhdicators will opt for the WDC Amateur League option. and of course allow the sad IDSF members to participate, Of course WDC believe in Freedom.

Very few English couples dance abroad under IDSF rules anyway - and those who do quickly realise  the IDSF Adjudictars encountered abroad cannot be trusted.

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Elaine
Joined on 28 sty 2003
Total posts: 128

Re: Practical Suggestions

20 grudnia 2007 22:52

I have no wish to get into the IDSF -v- WDC argument here as to be perfectly honest, if it came down to a choice I would have to do an awful lot more research before making a decision as to what I personally thought would be the best route to follow. My comments in my previous post were not an indication of what I think should happen but given merely as a suggestion of a route which could perhaps be open to EADA.   As Polkadancer quite rightly points out there are really very few British dancers who compete abroad at the present time and I suspect that if it came down to a vote being cast amongst EADA members which route to take, most of them probably wouldn't care very much as those that don't compete abroad (which is probably the vast majority) would take the view that it wouldn't affect them.  Without some sort of member vote it is impossible to tell which organisation EADA members would decide to follow.  I may be completely wrong but I suspect that at some point in the future EADA will be forced to take a decision on this and if and when this happens then I hope that they do look to the membership for a democratic decision rather than making a committee decision or following a BDC dictate.  As Polkadancer says, entrepeneurs, competition organisers, adjudicators etc may well opt for the WDC Amatuer League, however as the aforementioned folk are in the main all professionals I would think it only right and proper that the Amatuers themselves able to make their own decisions as to what they think would be in their best interests.

Following on from the discussion regarding EADA being run by volunteers, the current Chairman does I believe come from a broad business background and has during his leadership increased membership and income. However, if and when he steps down, how easy is it going to be to replace him with someone else willing to work full time for free?   Whilst I agree with Tango that perhaps dancers themselves are the best people to run an organisation for dancers I think the fact that many of the EADA committee members are active competitors could under certain circumstances put them in a difficult position if they are in a situation of being forced to make decisions which could make them unpopular.

Along the same lines as Kegg's idea regarding schools becoming members of EADA, some time ago I posted on the EADA website that I thought that every dancer who sets foot on a competition floor in any form of dance competition are to all intents and purposes amatuer dancers and should therefore have to be members of EADA and subject to the same rules and conditions. At the present time this rule only applies to Amatuers that wish to compete on the Open Circuit, however there are many many more dancers (probably thousands) that compete on the medallist circuit under various rules laid down by the teacher organisations.  Add even more that compete in the Supadance League Events and what we actually have in England is a three tier system, Professionals, Amatuers, Medallist/Supadance.  As said earlier in this paragraph I believe that anyone who competes in any form is an "amatuer", however those competing on the medallist circuit do so under the auspices of their teachers professional association and therefore the rules laid down by that organisation, which in many cases differ very considerably from those dictated to Amatuers by the BDC and EADA.  For example medallist competitors are able to help out and teach in studios, give dems etc, without any of the restrictions placed on amatuers nor fear of being penalised in any form. As another example the BDC lay down a "dress code" for juvenile competitors, this is designed to ensure that young dancers are dressed suitably for their age group.  Some medallist competitions follow the guidelines laid down by the BDC whereas others don't.   So what we effectively have is one set of rules for our open amatuer competitors and another set for our non  open ? amatuer competitors.  If a medallist competitor has a problem who can they look to for help? Other than their teacher they don't have have anyone to actually represent them or their best interests!  I think social dancers is another question altogether and I cannot see any reason nor benefit to them in belonging to an organisation such as EADA,

Personally therefore I do believe that everyone who takes part in competitive dancing in any shape or form should have to be a member of an Amatuer organisation such as EADA, whether that be through a "school" membership as suggested by Keggs or via individual membership.  Will it ever happen, somehow I doubt it!!!!!!!!!!!!  For this to come about and be enforced it would take a rule change by the BDC which as Keggs has pointed out the professional teachers organisations hold a large number of seats on the board, unfortunately they would have no reason nor incentive to want this to happen.

Could this be bought about by voluntary agreement between EADA and Dancing Schools, I don't know?  I daresay it is something that EADA might be prepared to discuss and consider but again I can't really see anything to benefit the average medallist dance school and I sadly suspect that Keggs is in the minority amongst his profession who might think of this as being a beneficial idea.

Some years ago an agreement was reached between EADA and the Supadance League whereby SDL members were to pay a small amount of their membership fees to EADA via the SDL and in return were entitled to dance open comps up to pre-championship standard.  This agreement unfortunately only ran for a few months before being rescinded after a number of difficulties arose. Unfortunately, in this case it was again dancers who were stuck in the middle and many who had taken advantage of the opportunity to start taking part in open comps found themselves in the unenviable position of having to choose whether they wished to continue to compete on the open circuit or revert back to being only able to represent their dance schools at SDL matches. So I think it would be very important to make sure that any such scheme was guaranteed a good chance of sucess before implementation.

I know Keggs strongly believes that we need to get rid of the distinction between Professionals and Amatuers and part of me agrees that this could benefit the competitive world. At the present time in England we have so few competing pro's that there are very few comps that they are able to take part in.  What I do have a bit of a problem with though is the thought of teachers actually competing against their own pupils, which is of course a situation which could well occur if this came about.  I suspect that this could also cause a problem for some pro's who might not be very happy to end up in a situation where they could be at risk of being beaten by a pupil!!

Wouldn't it be wonderful to have all the answers and the clout to turn the dance world into a perfect one for all competitors - what a lovely dream! - Having just re-read this, I realise that I am becoming even more cynical in my old age - lol

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tango
Joined on 29 paź 2006
Total posts: 192

Re: Practical Suggestions

20 grudnia 2007 23:16

Thank you Elaine,

 Not only was your post interesting and contained many valid points , it also managed to put your point across without insulting or attempting to degrade anyone ! This shows integrity and intelligence . Also I would like to thank you for refusing to turn this post into an IDSF v WDC debate .

It does seem extremely unfair that medallist competitors are able to teach etc , whilst amateurs competing on the open circuit fear action being taken against them if they do so. Surely there is something that can be done about this !! Though I am totally at a loss to know exactly what . As you stated " what a wonderful dream" it would be if we had the answers and the clout to change things .

I hadnt thought of the pupil competing against teacher scenario, that could be an awkward situation to say the least .Had you thought about that scenario Steve, and whats your opinon on it?

 

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keggs
Joined on 24 gru 2005
Total posts: 208

Re: Practical Suggestions

21 grudnia 2007 00:32

Just a quickie as I've just returne home after my club's Christmas Party.

Thanks Elaine and Tango for not falling into the IDSF / WDC trap set by a regular poster. I started this thread with one simple aim, namely to come up with ideas on how to get dancing, particularly competirive dancing moving. It isn't a thread to argue whether we are a sport or not or how good or bad the IDSF  or WDC are.

Yes, it could be problem if you beat your coach in a competition. Provided of course you allow it to be aproblem. I'm sure that many 'open' sports such as Golf and Tennis have this same problem. I'm not sure what the answer is. If a competing coach is beaten by his or her protege it might just be an indication of whether the coach has reached as far as he can. In a way if I was beaten by my own pupils I could take it as a compliment - I've taught them well - too well.

Come on folks -  get the ideas flowing. Surely there are plenty out there who can suggest ways of improving our sport.

May I make just one final appeal to those people who constantly try to outdo others in the abuse stakes. Please stop it. I wondered how long it would take for one person to start hijacking the debate. I for one will not rise to the bait of these people. In any event, this is a British thread about British dancing. While I don't want to stop outsiders commenting I don't want it to turn into a thread about the IDFS, WDC or any other world body. It's about the BDC, EADA, WADA, BDF and anything else British.

By the way, is anyone going to Nantwich on 30th December.? I'm taking an all lady couple for their first competition. If anyone is going and would like to say hello please do so. Just let me know and perhaps we could meet up.

Best wishes
Steve
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simplydancer
Joined on 04 gru 2007
Total posts: 25

Re: Practical Suggestions

21 grudnia 2007 09:47

Dear  Elaine
you done well not to try debating Polkadancer, because it seems to be no point of doing so. He or she will never agree to any view different from his/hers not because his/hers arguments are better but simply because he/she knows the ultimate "truth". Against strong belief there is no argument. All you get is allways the same answer to any point raised: Competitive dancing is not sport, IDSF is evil, the professionals have the right tu rule dancing for ever.
I am not from England but  from a country that was for a long time following or copying the English system. Unlike in England our system has changed and we are now in much better position.  Our national dancesport federation used to be like your EADA, ruled by iron fist of the Dancing Board where it was only one of many professional associations with only one vote even when having 95% of the total membership.
Now we have a Dancesport federation open to all, Amateurs and Professionals. Most professionals are members, in the executive is a mix of amateur dancers, non dancers and professionals voted in democratic elections. Everything is not perfect but there is a goodwill and steady progress is being made towards the proclaimed target to bring competition dancing out of the ballroom aera into the sporting world. We are a sport as are  figure skating, artistic and rhytmic gymnastics. Polkadancer can repeat denial 100 times it will achieve nothing.
The old Dancing Board still exists but has virtualy no following, when some years ago our biggest professional societies joined the Dancesport federation. This old Dancing Board is still affiliated with WDC so our professional competitors(very small number indeed) have to be its member also if they want to represent our country at the professional world championships.
I don't know if similar way can be found in England,  the professional side being probably much stronger.
Wishing you Merry Christmas, Happy New Year an