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Re: WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION


sambatogo Joined on 29 sie 2007 Total posts: 105	Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION 1 lipca 2008 17:41 To keggs, Our question to you is. If the worst that the WDC seems to be doing in your view, is that they seem to lack vision or promotion of this vision. And do in fact have a unified body of both Pro`s and Am`s. And you are a Pro yourself. Why do you not be a part of the WDC and implement the change to what you think is wrong? As you could do so surely? You seem by your statements to dissagree with many more IDSF policies that they have actioned, copared to the WDC? To jazz. Are you saying that the WDC Am league has no customers, so therefore no one should join? We believe the WDC previously wanted to protect the harmony between the IDSF/WDC. Thats why it never started the Am` League earlier until the IDSF became so militant and agressive that it was left with little, to no other choice. Sambatogo is sure that that many in the IDSF are not evil. But unfortunately the masters at the top of the IDSF chain seem to get their dictatorial, agressive and unhealthy ideas put into action. A case of the few contolling the many we believe. Sambatogo. Reply Quote
keggs Joined on 24 gru 2005 Total posts: 208	Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION 1 lipca 2008 23:09 Hi Sambatogo A very good question. I also have to thank you for not lacing it with either sarcasm or a deliberate trap to make me look foolish. To answer your question directly, while I understand what you are trying to say, for me it isn't that simple; there is far more to it than just having a vision and for pros and ams getting together. For me it's about the general direction we should be going in and what that vision is. To use a nautical term, the IDSF nailed its sporting colours to the mast and continues to do so. That's its basic vision. It isn't the WDCs as far as I can tell. Foregtting the arguments for and against the Olympics etc - it has no relevenace in the point I'm making, the IDSF embarked many years ago on a path to persue Olympic recognition and eventual Olympic status. They persued this venture and succeeded in being recognised. I have no idea what input the WDC had. If it did have some impact then it is very remiss of the IDSF to not recognise this. But if the WDC had no input then I have to ask why not? The only reason I can think is that the WDC had no interest in persuing a sport direction. Since then the IDSF has continually persued and accepted the concept that our form of dancing is sport and not just art. The WDC I feel accepts this reluctantly if it does at all. Further, the IDSF happily subscribed to the anti doping policy that all sports which Olympic recognised have to. From what I gather the WDC refused to do so. If that is now incorrect then I will be happy to let this go. People here make much of what the IDSF have to do to appease the IOC. They are missing the point entirely when they make remarks like this. The IDSF do so because it is happy to do not just because it has to be done. They want to be seen as a sports federation. I completely concur with this. The WDC however, I believe want to go in a completely different direction to the IDSF - an pure artistic direction. Sport is not high on its list. Yes, they do have a Dance Sport section but much is this a priority . I suspect not a lot in reality. Some here have suggested that we shouldn't get tangled up in an argument about one word. I have to disagree. It is the basis of the whole disagreement. Everything else including the IDSF silly bans stem from it. The IDSF also have a structure which is similar to that of most other sports. It runs its affairs in a similar way. It has commissions which are aimed at one purpose - to develop Ballroom & Latin Dancing as a sport - Dance Sport. This is the direction I want to go in and always have gone in from the earliest days of my dancing career. It has never crossed my mind that my form of dancing was anything other than an artistic sport. In all conscience I can not support any organisation in our world which does not have the sporting nature of my activity as paramount. It is this basic reason why I reject the WDC approach and favour the IDSF approach despite all its recent foolhardiness of the latter. My hope is that the WDC will decide to join us 'sports people'. I will understand if it doesn't but will be dissapointed because it is another step towards complete split, something I don't want to see happen. Best wishes Steve Reply Quote
jazz Joined on 07 kwi 2005 Total posts: 236	Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION 2 lipca 2008 03:12 Sambatogo asked Jazz : " Are you saying that the WDC Am league has no customers, so therefore no one should join? " No. Of course not. Read what is written, do not interpret . Sambatogo wrote : "Sambatogo is sure that that many in the IDSF are not evil. " I like definite statements. Are you sure there are not many ? But that means that Sambatogo is sure that the evil ones in the IDSF are in a minority ? That also mean that under their democratic process the Good should beat the Evil ! Case closed. The battle was won. Thank you. Realization makes me feel much better and I trust Keggs is also relieved.... But seriously, I have no idea if you are serious, or if I missed something in a translation, perhaps you are just just feeling a little giddy while celebrating the wonderful Canada day. You also stated you believed WDC previously wanted to protect harmony between the IDSF/WDC. I have no problem with people believing things. Some also believe in Easter-Bunny, or a Tooth-Fairy. But if you are suggesting that WDC has changed from the previous.... and wishes no longer for IDSF/WDC harmony .... that would not be good, because alternative would be for WDC looking for disharmony and fights - and that would no be good, and I do not think that's what you meant. I see WDC trying to react to IDSF's unpredictable actions - as someone pointed out, a January vision replaced by February etc. followed by other seasons ....just like a beast in the field swats annoying flies with its tail. Reply Quote
onyourtoes Joined on 12 lut 2007 Total posts: 102	Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION 2 lipca 2008 07:40 @moderate-man Like you I think it is sad that attempts have been to obscure the original intention of the subject. and later the concealing of the "orders" I too have been guilty but I have tried to bring the issue to the legality or non-legality of bans boycotts and suspensions which is being threatened against the WDC World Amateur Open Championship. Athough slightly away form the main subject I do thank you for an excellent and informative post filled with accuracy and consistency. and having relavancy. It must have been educational for many people and any person with an open mind should certainly have re-evaluated their inaccurate beliefs and claims.. Once again you showed us by their then Presidents own words the real intention and the great "vision" of the IDSF. A "VISION" for dance/dancesport which is tragic and shameful. There are so many IDSF members and IDSF supporters who pretend they want "UNITY" and one governing body wheras what they truly mean is ONE body the IDSF and if you do not 100% accept what they demand then we would prefer to have divison. Why are they ashamed to admit domination is the name of the game and they want no half way meeting and equality? Why not be honest with themselves never mind anyone else. I do know that some National Associations have been covertly threatened if they recognised or allowed their members to compete in certain events. Please can you confirm for me that we have the ridiculous situation that a National IDSF member can recognise an event and thus all their members can be banished from future IDSF events. I cannot believe that this is the danceworld in which the competitors wish to live. I think the great difference and I hope you will agree between Mr Hegeman and the Presidents who have followed him were first Mr Hegeman himself was a Champion dancer (German and European) he knew what the competitors wanted and worked for this. He was highly respected by all. He believed in the co-operation between Professionals and Amateurs for the mutual good .He strove tirelessly simpy for the good of Dance both Amateur and Professional and for the benefit of the competitors. He and Alex Moore achieved a great deal by talking and working together. I cannot believe that he would have been prepared for the total lunacy of tearing the unity apart over a silly issue like the word Dance or Dancesport. although I truly believe that for those at the top of IDSF it is simply an easy "reason" and for me one that is insane. The IDSF of today bears no relationship to the Amateur Association that previously existed and it is in my opinion totally wrong to try hijack and to claim that the former years were the "History" of the current IDSF. There is no connection at all. Reading some of the contributions on this subject I have to wonder if there are a number of "Authors" amongst the membership because they are so good at inventing their own stories. I hope(but seriously doubt ) they have learned for your great knowledge. It would be a step too far to admit that they had been so very wrong. From an IDSF National Member Body the full letter sent by IDSF Dear Member, The IDSF Presidium has received notice that World Dance Council (WDC) proposes to produce an "Open World Amateur Ballroom & Latin Championships 2008“ at the Disney Resort Paris, in France, December 5-7, 2008. This production is not authorized by the IDSF. It is IDSF policy that IDSF Member Federations, their athletes, official and adjudicators cannot participate in these unregistered competitions. This event is also not running under IOC Rules and Regulations, that includes the Anti-Doping Code and controls of the WADA (World Anti-Doping Agency). That last part shows their desperation and falsely ignores the statement issued by the WDC Am League. One feels sympathy for the competitors they dance under the Rules of the IOC, the WADA, the IDSF, their own national federation, the country in which they live, any country in which they compete and anyone else IDSF care to dream up. It must be difficult to know the exact content of all these Rules. Important to remember "Rules" are not "Law". There is a big difference.. By the way under Rule I of the IDSF I found the following claim "The only DanceSport competition that the IDSF does not claim to govern and maintain jurisdiction over are those specially declared to be excluded, or to be excluded for a period of time, by the authority of the IDSF Presidium. This must come as a big surprise for many organisers around the world and especially the British Open, the UK Open and "the International" but in reality is another "IDSF truth". My personal thanks again and very best wishes. Reply Quote
keggs Joined on 24 gru 2005 Total posts: 208	Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION 2 lipca 2008 10:50 Dear onyourtoes Quote: There are so many IDSF members and IDSF supporters who pretend they want "UNITY" and one governing body wheras what they truly mean is ONE body the IDSF and if you do not 100% accept what they demand then we would prefer to have divison. Why are they ashamed to admit domination is the name of the game and they want no half way meeting and equality? Why not be honest with themselves never mind anyone else. While you profess 'unity' yourself, I think the above paragraph could quite easily refer to the WDC. All the IDSf attackers on this forum make the assmption (based on what the IDSF has done and what they say) that they want to control. You may well be right in this assumption. If that is the case I too would disagree - I've said so, so I do not need to repeat it. But how do we know that the real motive of the WDC is not exactly the same. With the creation of the Amateur League I can see how that would be quite possible. The WDC asks to trust them. Why should I? What have they done to earn that trust? Quote: By the way under Rule I of the IDSF I found the following claim "The only DanceSport competition that the IDSF does not claim to govern and maintain jurisdiction over are those specially declared to be excluded, or to be excluded for a period of time, by the authority of the IDSF Presidium. I agree with your view on this, which is why any world governing body should have a clear separation between what the world body has jurisdiction over and what national associations have jurisdiction over. I can see the reasoning behind what the IDSF is doing but I don't agree with it. I will answer your questions soon. Best wishes Steve Reply Quote
onyourtoes Joined on 12 lut 2007 Total posts: 102	Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION 2 lipca 2008 10:57 @keggs PLEASE there is no need to answer my questions. I have many of my answers from your various other posts since they were asked. I criticise IDSF for what they HAVE DONE and INTEND DOING your criticise WDC for what you think without any reason they MIGHT DO. As I said before it really is not worthwhile and I am sure Admin and the other members would prefer we stay with the subject.. Reply Quote
keggs Joined on 24 gru 2005 Total posts: 208	Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION 2 lipca 2008 11:26 Dear onyourtoes Your questions answered. If I've left anything out let me know. If you need to know more please ask. 1. Will all competitors be freed from their curent restraints and then freely allowed to decide which body they wish to join to participate in the one world governing body. I believe in one national association that represents the interests of all. I also believe in affiliation to a national association and not incorporation. It will take too long to explain the advantages here but the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages if there are any. The biggest advantage is financial - something we desparately need both in Britain and the world. Each national body should then affiliate to the governing body in a federal system. 2. Should lets say England (and countries witha similar stucture) decide that amateur competitors need not be EADA etc and thus with IDSF connections but able to be WDC registered or even IDU and IDSA. No - please see no. 1 3. If we stick with the current restraints (and being less democratic) then the Amateurs I suspect have a greater number of competitors so should they have a greater voice with more delegates. I believe that this is one thing the Pros suspect will happen in a very short period of time., If we remain with the present pro .am division this should be reflected equally. I perceive 2 divisions within the one body. I have no objection to professionals or amateurs belonging pressure groups. As far as voting rights is concerned, there should be one country - one vote (populations etc should have no bearing). This gives too much power to particular countries. Smaller nations are always squeezed out which I dislike intensely. 4. Will those involved in any way e.g. a lowly teacher who has no desire to coach competitors have a role, I believe yes if it is all embracing. What if they were to win a vote that no Amateur could teach. I believe everyone in our world should have a voice. Even if such a vote went the way you suggest it should be accepted until such time that the vote can be put again and campaign for it (or against). eg I do not believe in Capital punishment but if parliament voted for it then I accept it until the law could be changed. You either accept the will of the majority or you don't. If you don't then you are not a democrat. 5. Should say countries like Russia and China with an infinitely greater number of competitors have a greater voice than lets say at random Luxemboug and Malta No 6. Would it be right for lets say those who are involved in folk dancing or ballet (although I doubt that they would ever be interested) voting and deciding the future of our dance competitors. Only dance forms which the governing body considers to have a sporting basis ie naturally competitive and have a proper competitive structure (not just artistic basis) should be allowed to affiliate to either a national or world body. Strict criteria should be applied in the same way that the IOC applies criteria for its own recognition of sports. For my part neither Ballet nor folk dancing (even if our form of dancing originated from folk dances) are eligible. 7. What about the likes of theatre dancers who are members of theatre unions will their union become a member and deciding competitive dancing future and our being bound by their internal decisions - maybe even going on strike!. No. See answer 6 8. If people like the folk and theatre dancers are accepted will corruption enter the scene with bribes and pressure to ensure their votes go in a particular way. for one of the standard/latin bodies. We have seen this happen with the Olympics. Not applicable. See 6 9. Should there be a free pardon for all past actions which are considered "sinful". Forgiveness is a virtue. It depends on the 'sin'. Have you something specific in mind. 10. Would the decisions by this "all governing" body become incumbent on every member and member country. I believe legally it would be impossible and the World Governing Body for dance being constantly in court., So we would still have one country operating different policies to another. There should be a clear separation between the jurisdiction of the world body and the jusrisdiction of national bodies. This is the way it works in most sporting organisations I believe. Anything specific that will potentially affect all countries should be agreed at the world congress. I'm thinking here of dress code and restricted figures. This happens in skating and football etc. albeit in different way. 11. Ask yourself if IDSF are in any way interested in meeting half way why do not (as is strongly rumoured) immediately announce competitors can dance where they choose - now that would the voice of the people and democratic. I agree with your sentiment, which is why the IDSF and WDC for that matter should have a proper written constitution specifically detailing its own jurisdiction. This is a major issue for me and one which should be sorted out. It is one reason why I believe in a new body - neither IDSF nor WDC. I hope I have answered your questions. I also hope that you find them agreeable. I am not the rebel you perhaps think I am. Instead I have a clear idea of what I want to see happen and how it can be implemented. But I am a lone voice, although people are beginning to see (I hesitate to use the word wisdom) the merits of this. In reality it doesn't matter what I say or suggest, what matters is that those who currently are bickering should drop it and start to work out our future - where we want to go, how we want to get there and what political and financial structures we need to achieve common goals, aspirations and dreams. Until all parties drop their antipathy, silly bans and calling for so called freedom nothing will change. Debate and negotiation serve a purpose. Antipathy does not. One is positive the other negative. But I'm an optimist. If the BDC can change as it is appearing to do, then I have hope. Best wishes Steve Reply Quote
onyourtoes Joined on 12 lut 2007 Total posts: 102	Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION 2 lipca 2008 11:54 @keggs Sorry I prefer to stick with reality and the subject. WDC World Open Amateur championship. You are either supportive of the position taken by IDSF which is your right or you are unequivocally and without qualification opposed and join the condemnation. It is that simple Reply Quote
moderate-man Joined on 09 gru 2006 Total posts: 37	Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION 2 lipca 2008 12:20 Let's take it a little further, you are either in favour of democracy and freedom that tries to involve all facets of Dancing ( Amateur, Professional, Organisers, Coaches, Competitors, etc.) or you are in favour of opression, restriction & control. Have a nice summer, I'm done with this. Reply Quote
keggs Joined on 24 gru 2005 Total posts: 208	Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION 2 lipca 2008 13:54 Dear onyourtoes & moderate-man I feel so sorry for you both. You don't appear to have any real understanding of what democracy actually is. No doubt I will be attacked as being pompous, but your replies are testament to this. We also now know that as supporters of the WDC you have no real belief in unity or taking our sport forward in a proper organised, well run, focused way. I don't think you ever had. Your only interest is to pour scorn on those who disagree with you. The only answer you want is *Yes, you are right, Sir.* That isn't democracy in my view. You accuse the IDSF of being dictatorial. You are right in many ways. But I think the both of you have shown the same. You argue but have not demonstrated to me why I should go your way. The irony is you hide behind the word 'freedom' as if that makes it alright. Everyone has a right to freedom. But rights and freedoms come with responsibilities. I would contend that I have the right and freedom to drive on the road, but would it be responsible for me to drive up the wrong way. I do not see any sense of responsibility in any answer you have given. All I have seen is anger when you can't get me or others who support me to 'go your way'. Sir Thomas Moor was beheaded because he couldn't find the other way when Henry VIII wanted a divorce. Is this what you would like to see happen to dissenters of your point of view. If you do, then what of your attack on Rudi Baumann. The real truth is as I said so long ago that many of the problems that exist between the IDSF and the WDC are based on jealousy. The IDSF has done some awful things (I have acknowledged that) but your and the WDC's hatred for this organisation is so great you can't even acknowledge the achievements it has made. Even saying IDSF probably causes palpatations. The same I suppose could be applied to the WDC. The IDSF should acknowledge achievements made by the WDC, although I am unsure what they are. I am not being sarcastic. So perhaps you could enlighten me and everyone else as to what they are. Having thought about it, it is likely anyway that you will poor scorn on those supposed achievements of the IDSF. So perhaps we should drop that one.